Tara has pretty much worked the Monk class as to be playable.
Clerics are now lifted from the multi-class ban. ( the sign in the OOC area needs updated to say this)
Arcane Archers now gain tremendous abilities with the bonus empowerment of arrows , and makes the class option worth playing , and unique as a class I might add!
We still need viable ideas and options for the other classes as well.
Palemaster - Needs basically to do away with the crit hit immunity , I personally do not care for PM but it does grant casters more HP and tougher in the long run.
What to replace that with though?
( On a side note , Necromancers either arcane or Divine , the summon undead spells use default NWN summons , and they are not on par as the other summons are. )
Shifter - Need to know what to fix there. Seeker says the class messes with technical aspects of characters ... not sure what exactly.
( I am thinking on making a test shifter, to see what happens myself. )
Shadowdancer - We can easily nerf HiPS if that's the issue.
Purple Dragon Knight - I don't know about this one. It doesn't seem PDKs really get anything great, and we don't use mounts in Alangara so mounted combat is kind of worthless option to do. I have never played one. Never had a desire to. The abilities seem so weak , it's not worth taking the PRC when other class levels would benefit way more.
Harper Scout - I still do not understand how this was a class ... I literally see no benefit to it, except to breach some gaps between Ranger/Bard/Rogue to make other "builds".
I have no idea what to do with this class either ... Like PDK I don't now much about the class, having never played one, or had the desire to.
Other classes needing ideas
Re: Other classes needing ideas
Shadow Dancers was only removed due to HIPS yes. If that can be removed then we can re-allow it NP. However I was personally under the impression that HIPS was infact the only reason for people to choose that class.
Haven't looked at purple dragon knight myself. If it has special powers that are not hardcoded t means we can transform those scripts into whatever we want
/tara
Haven't looked at purple dragon knight myself. If it has special powers that are not hardcoded t means we can transform those scripts into whatever we want
/tara
Re: Other classes needing ideas
@Tara, BenevolentDevil, I've sent a PM elaborating on the technical challenges with the Shifter class that I know of, in general as well as specifically with regards to Alangara
Somnium (a.k.a. Seeker)
Re: Other classes needing ideas
Thx Seeker and as far as I see it, we just leave Shifter in the void. Its not worth it...
/tara
/tara
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BenevolentDevil
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:37 am
Re: Other classes needing ideas
I asked Seeker if it's possible to fix the skin issue by editing the shifter skins to do as the alangara skin does, the engine bugs I have to research ...
But if shifter has this issue, does things like tensers transformation, or druid wild shape ability do it as well?
Most people will take SD for HiPs alone, but SD also does grant some nicer abilities in it's later levels, like Shadow Evade. I forget what else.
Mostly, my desire is to basically make Alangara more appealing up front, by talking with players that tried Alangara, the class bans seemed to be the biggest issue of why players didn't stick around. And , to be honest ... I tend to agree with them in the way it bothered them.
You have other PWs and even single player modules, where you aren't limited and can play what you want ...
So why play on a place, ( even if it is awesome and cool) , that has limitations on what you can play ....
The level 6 min on each class, already takes care of cheese builds ( all cheese builds are PvP minded exploitative builds). We do not really have PvP here, due to lack of players and opposing views. Plus the quest and such, point to more cooperative play ... so I do not really see PvP being an issue in the future.
The two thinsg everyone says to me, when I talk to them about Alangara is :
1- Most didn't agree with the class bans ( one said the rest timer was too long for casters , lol ).
and
2- Some bounties didn't drop fast enough for their liking.
Another mentioned they didn't quite like the fetch/and bounty quest system , but I am really having a hard time figuring out ANY NWN quest system that doesn't do that, even the OC has it.
So any changes we can do, to alleviate the class banns, I think will have a more positive impact on players sticking around, or giving it a good shot.
But if shifter has this issue, does things like tensers transformation, or druid wild shape ability do it as well?
Most people will take SD for HiPs alone, but SD also does grant some nicer abilities in it's later levels, like Shadow Evade. I forget what else.
Mostly, my desire is to basically make Alangara more appealing up front, by talking with players that tried Alangara, the class bans seemed to be the biggest issue of why players didn't stick around. And , to be honest ... I tend to agree with them in the way it bothered them.
You have other PWs and even single player modules, where you aren't limited and can play what you want ...
So why play on a place, ( even if it is awesome and cool) , that has limitations on what you can play ....
The level 6 min on each class, already takes care of cheese builds ( all cheese builds are PvP minded exploitative builds). We do not really have PvP here, due to lack of players and opposing views. Plus the quest and such, point to more cooperative play ... so I do not really see PvP being an issue in the future.
The two thinsg everyone says to me, when I talk to them about Alangara is :
1- Most didn't agree with the class bans ( one said the rest timer was too long for casters , lol ).
and
2- Some bounties didn't drop fast enough for their liking.
Another mentioned they didn't quite like the fetch/and bounty quest system , but I am really having a hard time figuring out ANY NWN quest system that doesn't do that, even the OC has it.
So any changes we can do, to alleviate the class banns, I think will have a more positive impact on players sticking around, or giving it a good shot.
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BenevolentDevil
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:37 am
Re: Other classes needing ideas
I mean, personally ... I don't care for shifter myself.
I think most it's shift shapes are sub par , and many of them do not make any sense , or are very good forms ... By far a single classed druid, way trumps most shifter forms anyways. In my eyes, the Greater Elemental Shift druids gain, ( plus buffs ) is way greater than the huge door blocking dragon shift of the epic shifter.
That's my opinion though.
We can back-burner the shifter , but I bet we can eventually find a reasonable means of fixing them.
Like I said, I think players logging in , are seeing our class bans, and immediately become less interested in giving the PW a good long lasting shot.
But currently as I understand it -
Shifter causes issues because of the default Skin Alangara uses ... . which I woul dthink could be solved, by editing the shifter skins to do the same things.
The second issue, gaining permenent HP based on Temp HP from shifter forms/spamming the export tool ... ( simply put code in the export tool, disallowing a shifted/Transformed character from using it. ) - also might be related to the skin issue above.
The last is techncal issues with Shifter default by NWN , and I have searched google fo rthis, but have found no plain discussions on it yet, so I will have to dig further.
But , we can fix the other classes easier, and if Shifter was the only ban, I bet players could live with that.
I think most it's shift shapes are sub par , and many of them do not make any sense , or are very good forms ... By far a single classed druid, way trumps most shifter forms anyways. In my eyes, the Greater Elemental Shift druids gain, ( plus buffs ) is way greater than the huge door blocking dragon shift of the epic shifter.
That's my opinion though.
We can back-burner the shifter , but I bet we can eventually find a reasonable means of fixing them.
Like I said, I think players logging in , are seeing our class bans, and immediately become less interested in giving the PW a good long lasting shot.
But currently as I understand it -
Shifter causes issues because of the default Skin Alangara uses ... . which I woul dthink could be solved, by editing the shifter skins to do the same things.
The second issue, gaining permenent HP based on Temp HP from shifter forms/spamming the export tool ... ( simply put code in the export tool, disallowing a shifted/Transformed character from using it. ) - also might be related to the skin issue above.
The last is techncal issues with Shifter default by NWN , and I have searched google fo rthis, but have found no plain discussions on it yet, so I will have to dig further.
But , we can fix the other classes easier, and if Shifter was the only ban, I bet players could live with that.
Re: Other classes needing ideas
ok, I've played on a lot of different worlds and here's my feedback:
Shifters - not many people are dying to play shifters and most expect that on medium or high magic worlds, they aren't generally playable because of item merging behaviors. I wouldn't worry about this until last, it's not really a big one.
Shadowdancers - there's a few good reasons to play SDs - improved evasion and epic dodge are both quite good. It's a tumble class that's a prestige class, so you can take it regardless to race and not worry about xp penalties. Epic Dodge for a 10 level investment and not having to spend feats on IE and Def Roll is pretty good too. If you want to improve it, the most common items that I've seen work successfully are to edit Shadow Evade from 5 rounds to 1/round per level or 2 rds/lvl (it's 3xrest period use feat). Maybe bump it up to +6 AC at level 20 or something. The other edit is to edit the shadowdancer's summons to something more useful than default. Those 2 edits make it more worth it to take a lot of SD (i.e. be a true SD, rather than splashing for game mechanics).
Palemaster - Palemasters are powerful, even without the critical immunity. They get a bagillion AC, custom summons, and they can get epic feats for their bonus feats past 16. They get immunity to stun, hold, paralyze at PM7. Some options to edit them if desired - instead of granting crit immunity, which has sneak and crit immunity, you could just get sneak immunity. So it's a nice little defensive addition, but you're still subject to critical damage, just not sneak damage. Like SD, the summons could be enhanced to be actually worth casting. The DC on their paralyze or death touch could also be edited. But even if vanilla PM has crit immunity removed, I still think it's a powerful addition to classes.
PDK and Harper Scout would need a complete rewrite from the places I've seen - removing the 5 level limit, deciding on a theme for each, editing some feats around to fit that theme. You probably want to "fix/edit" Palemasters and Shadowdancers first since people expect to play those, whereas they are used to PDK and HS being useless.
Bill
Shifters - not many people are dying to play shifters and most expect that on medium or high magic worlds, they aren't generally playable because of item merging behaviors. I wouldn't worry about this until last, it's not really a big one.
Shadowdancers - there's a few good reasons to play SDs - improved evasion and epic dodge are both quite good. It's a tumble class that's a prestige class, so you can take it regardless to race and not worry about xp penalties. Epic Dodge for a 10 level investment and not having to spend feats on IE and Def Roll is pretty good too. If you want to improve it, the most common items that I've seen work successfully are to edit Shadow Evade from 5 rounds to 1/round per level or 2 rds/lvl (it's 3xrest period use feat). Maybe bump it up to +6 AC at level 20 or something. The other edit is to edit the shadowdancer's summons to something more useful than default. Those 2 edits make it more worth it to take a lot of SD (i.e. be a true SD, rather than splashing for game mechanics).
Palemaster - Palemasters are powerful, even without the critical immunity. They get a bagillion AC, custom summons, and they can get epic feats for their bonus feats past 16. They get immunity to stun, hold, paralyze at PM7. Some options to edit them if desired - instead of granting crit immunity, which has sneak and crit immunity, you could just get sneak immunity. So it's a nice little defensive addition, but you're still subject to critical damage, just not sneak damage. Like SD, the summons could be enhanced to be actually worth casting. The DC on their paralyze or death touch could also be edited. But even if vanilla PM has crit immunity removed, I still think it's a powerful addition to classes.
PDK and Harper Scout would need a complete rewrite from the places I've seen - removing the 5 level limit, deciding on a theme for each, editing some feats around to fit that theme. You probably want to "fix/edit" Palemasters and Shadowdancers first since people expect to play those, whereas they are used to PDK and HS being useless.
Bill
Re: Other classes needing ideas
I am not sure how to remove their crit imunity, thats the main problem. As for their summons we allready tweaked the summons of the Black Guard and can easely do that for PM also.
Truth be told if its a feat or something like that I would really prefere to remove both crit and sneak imunity since we have nice potions now for all to use that grants stuff like this. If its a tweakable feat then perhaps make it something else...
/tara
Truth be told if its a feat or something like that I would really prefere to remove both crit and sneak imunity since we have nice potions now for all to use that grants stuff like this. If its a tweakable feat then perhaps make it something else...
/tara
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BenevolentDevil
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:37 am
Re: Other classes needing ideas
Yeah, basically the only two characters I played a PM with was basic Sorc builds, and I used PM just to toughen them up in case they got too close in physical combat ( mostly due to other players PvP-ing. )
I forgot it was also sneak immune ... , I would also remove or nerf that if possible.
Yeah, PM does have drawbacks, like no spells gained for casters, and you can build basically an unstoppable black guard build because of those immunties by default. ( or like me, an Illithid Mind Flayer Sorc/PM , that proved too much for even super-build fighting PC Tanks. )
Yeah, PM is almost like playing a Lich , with-out as many drawbacks and plycetery use hahahaha!
I forgot it was also sneak immune ... , I would also remove or nerf that if possible.
Yeah, PM does have drawbacks, like no spells gained for casters, and you can build basically an unstoppable black guard build because of those immunties by default. ( or like me, an Illithid Mind Flayer Sorc/PM , that proved too much for even super-build fighting PC Tanks. )
Yeah, PM is almost like playing a Lich , with-out as many drawbacks and plycetery use hahahaha!
Re: Other classes needing ideas
for palemasters, the cls_feat_palema.2da file specifies what feats are granted at what levels, so in the GrantedOnLevel column, you enter the level the feat is granted, or -1 if not granted. See here http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Cls_feat_*.2da. So for the row with Deathless Mastery, just change that GrantedOnLevel column value to -1.
now if you're gonna do this, then people will need to drop the modified .2da file into their override directory (and it might affect other PWs or local modules), similar to the monk edits.
now if you're gonna do this, then people will need to drop the modified .2da file into their override directory (and it might affect other PWs or local modules), similar to the monk edits.