Does the merchants guild require actual rogue levels to get into? Bc after much cross-classing, my new PC was able to unlock the door, but all the dialogue choices lead to "oh that's too bad the guild disbanded" type dialogue.
If getting to that merchant DOES require rogue levels, is there any way to buy haste potions elsewhere that I'm missing? Or are non-casters without rogue pretty much at the mercy of loot chests?
"merchants" guild?
Re: "merchants" guild?
Rogue or bard levels are required yes, and yes without those people are currently at the mercy of the chests or buying from other players that are "connected".
My main idea back then was "obviously ?" , to have something special for in particular the rogues. Since it is fully legal to trade between alts also I suspect this limitation could be argued upon as counterproductive as in reality the limitation is easy bypassed by creating an alt. Once again this system was designed ages ago with more players, but the question remains that if I just made potions available somewhat more expensive in Magic & Mysteries, would it then "take away" from those classes.
Thinking upon it while writing this answer I am though starting to consider if in reality it would just make it easier for people to sell those potions they dont really need and then use those gold for buying more of what they need, and thus reducing the massive "potion hording" I know all my characters inventory "suffers under". I shall consider it some, and in that case also prices...
/tara
My main idea back then was "obviously ?" , to have something special for in particular the rogues. Since it is fully legal to trade between alts also I suspect this limitation could be argued upon as counterproductive as in reality the limitation is easy bypassed by creating an alt. Once again this system was designed ages ago with more players, but the question remains that if I just made potions available somewhat more expensive in Magic & Mysteries, would it then "take away" from those classes.
Thinking upon it while writing this answer I am though starting to consider if in reality it would just make it easier for people to sell those potions they dont really need and then use those gold for buying more of what they need, and thus reducing the massive "potion hording" I know all my characters inventory "suffers under". I shall consider it some, and in that case also prices...
/tara
Re: "merchants" guild?
IMO, rogues and bards have plenty of reasons to play them and access to the potion seller is the last of them.
Bards get:
Nice array of buff spells
Bard song (AB, dmg, dodge AC) w/ easier perform
Curse song
Valkyrie summon
access to special arrows for dex-based ranged
tumble/umd skillset
0% failure casting armor
2nd most skill points
Rogues get
ab/magic damage bump (between +5 to +20)
sneak attack damage
most skill pts per level
tumble/umd/open locks/disable trap class skills
d8 hp
special rogue bonus feats (improved evasion and crippling strike) that give access to epic dodge
so neither of those classes is hurting for good reasons to play them.
But if you want to make it so there's an inconvenience penalty (e.g. non rogue/bards need to have another player or other PC buy and trade them) and that's ok, then ok.
PS you might want to add assassin into the mix since they are the only non-rogue class to have open locks as a class skill
Bards get:
Nice array of buff spells
Bard song (AB, dmg, dodge AC) w/ easier perform
Curse song
Valkyrie summon
access to special arrows for dex-based ranged
tumble/umd skillset
0% failure casting armor
2nd most skill points
Rogues get
ab/magic damage bump (between +5 to +20)
sneak attack damage
most skill pts per level
tumble/umd/open locks/disable trap class skills
d8 hp
special rogue bonus feats (improved evasion and crippling strike) that give access to epic dodge
so neither of those classes is hurting for good reasons to play them.
But if you want to make it so there's an inconvenience penalty (e.g. non rogue/bards need to have another player or other PC buy and trade them) and that's ok, then ok.
PS you might want to add assassin into the mix since they are the only non-rogue class to have open locks as a class skill
Re: "merchants" guild?
Hmm true about the Assassin as one that should then have access to the thieves guild.
And I find your logics/arguments unnervingly reasonable, so will add those different potions to M&M allthough at a somewhat higher price.
/tara
And I find your logics/arguments unnervingly reasonable, so will add those different potions to M&M allthough at a somewhat higher price.
/tara
Re: "merchants" guild?
This is how it starts...logic, reason. muuuaahhahaha
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BenevolentDevil
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:37 am
Re: "merchants" guild?
I agree somewhat with the Haste pots , but at the same time it's not too hard to gain haste items from chest and defeating water spirits in the cave in Talkesh Forrest.
Occasionally, I'll take Jess and run through the Moors where the Crypt is , nabb the outside chest, then book-it in the crypt , wipe out the undead and nab all those chest, port back to inn, port to Talkesh deep , and do a circuit in the water spirit cave, which will usually yield up enough haste pots, and water spirit gems to haste myself on the fly , and/or minions ...
Other options to "circuit" I think I remember the Mines having a good amount of lootable chest and mine carts as well.
Mitzbutts tunnles are great to circle around if you can survive there, if you want gold/xp , and the gold is good even when XP drops to one each.
All I am saying , there was already means to get these things ...
As far as Haste goes , I also recommend using the first crystal gathering quest, to boost haste ... it's nice not having to use one every 2 minutes.
As far as class "fairness" goes :
The raw fighter , and Barbarian suffer the most in comparison to other classes. These classes are heavy item dependent when solo , and they actually have the least amount of option until reaching very high levels, and the ban of Dev Crit strips the fighter/WM/ or Big Melee builds of their only truly great ability they can achieve.
Barbs only get the big rage , at very high levels ...
Fighters have to rely on the forge/socket gems ( but all classes can do that ).
Just about every class , has means to self buff except these two , for extra damage ...ect. Or extra damage provided by class build, like sneak attack , boosted arrows/bolts , or infinite use staffs.
Honestly the gem sockets , and forge offer the least to Wizards and Sorcs , as they are not melee classes , and most the good "cloth" armors already have more properties on them, than the forge allows you to boost.
Also , there's a lack of wands and items for arcane casters to use that can be purchased. I used a wand of fire when very low level, but beyond the goblin bounties, it was so low level fire-ball , it wasn't worth buying/using ...
I would like to see a rod of Ethereal Visage Friendly for one thing. Rod of the ghost friendly epic level counter-part. The gems that give that spell temporarily are a tad difficult to get. And they are way off the beaten path as well , lol.
Well, if you aren't a epic level Bard lol.
One aspect that's always bugged me a bit was all classes having to spend skill points to open locks for doors and chest. I understand some skills were disabled to kind of free up points for this , but if you don't spend points in those to boost combat related skills , or other skills ... you have to be traveling with a character that can OL these things.
I would think , barbs and Fighters should be able to "bash" or force open non-key doors and chest , due to higher STR , instead of learning to pick locks.
Jess doesn't even know how the internal mechanisms work in a lock, but she can pick the crap out of them ... which from a RP standpoint, doesn't make a lot of sense lol.
Wizards , Sorcs, and Clerics also suffer some skill point loss from needed skills , to gain more OL skill points. Lower Lore/Spellcraft up until level 30 , and lower healing skill for clerics, and all those are dependent on bonus points spent from INT , which will be low on all but Wizard.
And, it rather takes away from the rogue and bard classes a bit as well.
Druids, and rangers gain these upgraded animal companions , and a wiz/sorc familiar is default.
And I recently noted , only summon monster Level_x , has been changed, and I think maybe gate Spell ... the rest of "summons" , be them undead, or planar ally , ( I don't know about elementals because I hadn't played a druid here ) , are still default creatures , and no where near as awesome as they should be, in comparison to the new monster summons of course.
But, I have played here a long time with all this, and it really is all fine.
I am not "complaining" at all, just pointing out observations I had made.
Occasionally, I'll take Jess and run through the Moors where the Crypt is , nabb the outside chest, then book-it in the crypt , wipe out the undead and nab all those chest, port back to inn, port to Talkesh deep , and do a circuit in the water spirit cave, which will usually yield up enough haste pots, and water spirit gems to haste myself on the fly , and/or minions ...
Other options to "circuit" I think I remember the Mines having a good amount of lootable chest and mine carts as well.
Mitzbutts tunnles are great to circle around if you can survive there, if you want gold/xp , and the gold is good even when XP drops to one each.
All I am saying , there was already means to get these things ...
As far as Haste goes , I also recommend using the first crystal gathering quest, to boost haste ... it's nice not having to use one every 2 minutes.
As far as class "fairness" goes :
The raw fighter , and Barbarian suffer the most in comparison to other classes. These classes are heavy item dependent when solo , and they actually have the least amount of option until reaching very high levels, and the ban of Dev Crit strips the fighter/WM/ or Big Melee builds of their only truly great ability they can achieve.
Barbs only get the big rage , at very high levels ...
Fighters have to rely on the forge/socket gems ( but all classes can do that ).
Just about every class , has means to self buff except these two , for extra damage ...ect. Or extra damage provided by class build, like sneak attack , boosted arrows/bolts , or infinite use staffs.
Honestly the gem sockets , and forge offer the least to Wizards and Sorcs , as they are not melee classes , and most the good "cloth" armors already have more properties on them, than the forge allows you to boost.
Also , there's a lack of wands and items for arcane casters to use that can be purchased. I used a wand of fire when very low level, but beyond the goblin bounties, it was so low level fire-ball , it wasn't worth buying/using ...
I would like to see a rod of Ethereal Visage Friendly for one thing. Rod of the ghost friendly epic level counter-part. The gems that give that spell temporarily are a tad difficult to get. And they are way off the beaten path as well , lol.
Well, if you aren't a epic level Bard lol.
One aspect that's always bugged me a bit was all classes having to spend skill points to open locks for doors and chest. I understand some skills were disabled to kind of free up points for this , but if you don't spend points in those to boost combat related skills , or other skills ... you have to be traveling with a character that can OL these things.
I would think , barbs and Fighters should be able to "bash" or force open non-key doors and chest , due to higher STR , instead of learning to pick locks.
Jess doesn't even know how the internal mechanisms work in a lock, but she can pick the crap out of them ... which from a RP standpoint, doesn't make a lot of sense lol.
Wizards , Sorcs, and Clerics also suffer some skill point loss from needed skills , to gain more OL skill points. Lower Lore/Spellcraft up until level 30 , and lower healing skill for clerics, and all those are dependent on bonus points spent from INT , which will be low on all but Wizard.
And, it rather takes away from the rogue and bard classes a bit as well.
Druids, and rangers gain these upgraded animal companions , and a wiz/sorc familiar is default.
And I recently noted , only summon monster Level_x , has been changed, and I think maybe gate Spell ... the rest of "summons" , be them undead, or planar ally , ( I don't know about elementals because I hadn't played a druid here ) , are still default creatures , and no where near as awesome as they should be, in comparison to the new monster summons of course.
But, I have played here a long time with all this, and it really is all fine.
I am not "complaining" at all, just pointing out observations I had made.
Re: "merchants" guild?
Without going too much into all of this just a short remark on the haste side of things.
The new "Token of Travel" from Heroes Rest grants besides the teleport also unlimited "expeditous retreat" 5 minutes at the time. This dont even go away in combat. So for movement there are no haste problems for any classes any more
/tara
The new "Token of Travel" from Heroes Rest grants besides the teleport also unlimited "expeditous retreat" 5 minutes at the time. This dont even go away in combat. So for movement there are no haste problems for any classes any more
/tara
Re: "merchants" guild?
in terms of open locks, for the "entry" level chests with DC of 25, you get take 20 when not in combat, so you only need a modded 5 points of DEX+open locks. 2 rings of Dex+3 from the shop gives +3 right there, so you'd only need to get 2 open locks (cross-class 4 skill points). That will open all the lower area chests (crypt, etc). There are some "reinforced" chests with DC of 33 that needed a bit more (gnolls area), so after take 20, you need 13 dex+OL points. With the same 2 rings, now you only need 10. so you might need to invest 20 points to cross-class.
But let's look at who needs what skills
Melee non-caster: discipline, tumble. UMD a bit if you have it. a bit of OL per above. leftovers can get saving throw boost with spellcraft. Even with only getting 2 pts per level, if you have a reasonable int and/or are human, you can get what you need.
semi-casters (paladins, ranger, bards): concentration, discipline, tumble, perform (bard only obv) maybe UMD. tad bit of OL and if leftovers spellcraft. Rangers and Bards also get 4/level.
Wizards - plenty of INT, lots of skill points. Needs Concentration, spellcraft (assume epic spells), discipline (thought prob getting knocked down in epic without potion since no strength), cross class tumble.
Sorcerer and cleric - these get tough since you need concentration and spellcraft (epic spells) and tumble and you prob want discipline and a bit of OL as well.
Rogues - plenty of skill points.
So pretty much anyone can get DC 25, but 33 takes a bit of work. I'm sure there's higher DC's in epic areas, but that's what I've noticed.
But let's look at who needs what skills
Melee non-caster: discipline, tumble. UMD a bit if you have it. a bit of OL per above. leftovers can get saving throw boost with spellcraft. Even with only getting 2 pts per level, if you have a reasonable int and/or are human, you can get what you need.
semi-casters (paladins, ranger, bards): concentration, discipline, tumble, perform (bard only obv) maybe UMD. tad bit of OL and if leftovers spellcraft. Rangers and Bards also get 4/level.
Wizards - plenty of INT, lots of skill points. Needs Concentration, spellcraft (assume epic spells), discipline (thought prob getting knocked down in epic without potion since no strength), cross class tumble.
Sorcerer and cleric - these get tough since you need concentration and spellcraft (epic spells) and tumble and you prob want discipline and a bit of OL as well.
Rogues - plenty of skill points.
So pretty much anyone can get DC 25, but 33 takes a bit of work. I'm sure there's higher DC's in epic areas, but that's what I've noticed.
Re: "merchants" guild?
It should also be noted, which is quite important, that in higher level areas like Ilutharn forest ( giants ) you start getting random drop loot. This CAN be items with skill boosts so basically you can over time collect an "open lock" outfit. Also its not like there is SO many high level chests around and you get a steady stream of lock picks +10 once you get to some level 20+ and spend the time picking up the random loots that drops quite a bit.
And finally yes there are more demanding chests around in EPIC areas, but they are ment for rogues or at least characters who have specialised in lock picking...
/tara
And finally yes there are more demanding chests around in EPIC areas, but they are ment for rogues or at least characters who have specialised in lock picking...
/tara
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BenevolentDevil
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:37 am
Re: "merchants" guild?
// Jess did find a nifty ring dropped the other day.
On the aspects of attaining dex+3 rings , when low level you are gold starved enough as it is , when the good armors and weapons are million gold plus , it also helps not to spend needlessly in the long run.
You get enough points , at least eventually to get decent enough OL , I was just saying that can detract from other useful skills especially in the pre level 20 range. And that, from an RP perspective , doesn't make sense why everyone is a master lock picker really.
On the aspects of attaining dex+3 rings , when low level you are gold starved enough as it is , when the good armors and weapons are million gold plus , it also helps not to spend needlessly in the long run.
You get enough points , at least eventually to get decent enough OL , I was just saying that can detract from other useful skills especially in the pre level 20 range. And that, from an RP perspective , doesn't make sense why everyone is a master lock picker really.