Alangara

Howdy all

From what I have learned the other night there was alot of talking between a group of players in which several issues were brought forth. Unfortunately I wasn't there myself to answer those at the time...

First and foremost if anyone is wondering, or is even worried, about something by all means write a post about it here on the forum. This way I can likely answer it rather fast and other will have the benefit of seing the answer as well....

Now here is my answer to some of the things that seemes to be "on the table" as by the memory of BenevolentDevil.

1. Characters

I realise this is mainly due to my own writing in conjunction with out current BETA status. The main reason for BETA status and my writing that characters might get reset hat to do with out intire database being wiped at the server host crash. Thus it presented some obvious problems wth people being able to actually do all the quests again giving "unfair advantages" to levellign those afflicted characters. Having seen how little characters it actually is in speaking no worries. NO CHARACTERS WILL BE DELETED.

If we decide to retire existing characters it will be becourse we as a community decides this a smart aproach, and not me as worlddesigner dictating it.

2. Needed changes.

Apparently there has been some debates of wether or not I would be willing to make needed changes to whatever was in mention. Anyone actually taking the time to read the OOC DM sign will quickly realise that we are nothing short of "darn flexible" when it comes to changes. However wether something is NEEDED obviously is my final call. one of the only thing I recall having sid really no to is removing rest restrictions but all ready they have been heavely downscaled compared to before. the reason these will not be removed is obviously that without rest restrictions casters becomes completely overpowered, or we need to scale the spells after them being unlimited. Then what casters will get instead is very weak spells. The inteire NWN gameballance is built upon the fact that casters dont have endless spells after all. Other than that we have been introducing an amount of harcore changes to lots of classes and spells/feats dramatically changing those all ways for the better and a few nerfs with very little feats/spells and few classes.

3. Dex armors ?

I am really asuming that peopel are talking about having more tolmar armors in cloth type here ? If not its really pointless since anyone can create their own armor of any type in the Magical forge..

However in debating this understand this also. Any and all classes can get better AC with cloth than with platemail due to out permanent statbonusses and realatively ease to gain +12 dex. However if all get higher AC the monsters will just need higher tohit. Because this server is not about being all powerful - there are other servers out there serving that kinda purpose

This in reality means that if all players gets to high AC I am forced to UP the AB on the monsters and then those few natural DEX builds will effectively be nerfed since they now dont have more AC than the plate wearors anyways....

4. Armors and trinkets for warriors/fighters.

Melee characters by far got the most free items to be found in Alangara. Basically becourse they are the ones needing it the most. Pure casters and range classes can pretty much rely on the improved spells and or options like specialty arrows and improves summons. Thus they allready have been improved and dont need free items....

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Well I hope this answer some of the questions that might have been amongst you and if not by all means reply to this post with your questions

/tara

Isn't the forge just for the main character though?

Since the rest of your characters can't legally farm , that limits the forge use correct? Or am I mistaken,or did things change in my absence?

farm was changed so that all characters can farm and it was never illilegal to transfer gear (unless you made +6 items in the forge with a level 25+ and gave them to someone under level 25).

Currently right now a dexer has lower ac than plate armour and shield and even without the shield, ac is comparable. A fighter has the option to take improved expertise where other dex builds dont necessarily have that option due to feat constraints. From an RP point of view, most dex based characters are nimble and avoid danger by dodging out of the way of attacks and therefore rarely carry a shield since first of all, the weight of the thing throws them off balance and second, they usually lack the strength to block a heavy blow from an opponent and dont really want to be in that position to begin with. A fighter in plate armour and shield on the other hand, is designed to be able have the armour absorb the brunt of whatever blow comes their way and they have the strength to be able to block and repel blows.

Now as far as the math goes for determining ac, the difference is between full plate (ac +9) with a tower shield (ac +3 + modifiers on the shield). With just unmagical full plate and shield, you are looking at +12 ac. Now for a dexer to match that, they have to have a 34 dex which is a minimum of 22 base and +12 items. Now assuming that they start off with a dex of 18, that is 4 stat points just to catch up to a fighter. Add modifiers to the shield (lets assume late game and go +6) that means now the dexer needs a 40 dex just to catch up to the fighter. Now sure with all the stat quests, the dexer will eventually get there but dexers also rarely if ever take improved expertise.

Now if you just assume that someone playing a dex based class will want to achieve the highest ac possible and take a shield as well as improved expertise, then in that regard you are right, that they will have a much higher ac. The trade off for those class types is low hp compared to the fighter so sure they get hit less, but when they do get hit it hurts. Assuming that all dexers will take a shield and improved expertise is unrealistic and scaling the monsters to be able to fight a fighter with improved expertise really limits how one can build a dexer or even a fighter really. If you choose to not use a shield and improved expertise then your character has a much harder time dealing with the monsters (especially in epic levels) which pretty much slows character development to a halt.

If the server is designed to be an RP server then it doesn't make sense to effectively limit how characters can be built based on the challenge level of the monsters. This is why Rose and BenevolentDevil are having so many problems, because they are playing to have fun and RP rather than conquer the server like most gamers tend to do. Incartus brought up a good point about something he called min max. Most players tend to build with the idea of having a powerful character to be able to beat whatever the server throws at them. Usually players that build this way are less interested in RP and more interested in achieving everything there is to achieve. Now if the server is balanced to deal with that, then those players get their challenge and enjoyment but those designing a character for fun and RP suffers greatly and easily gets demoralized at the challenge level of the server.

Now for the balance. The server is fairly balanced for players that build their character in terms of power but seems to be too challenging for players that are on the server for the RP and fun of the game. Now if the challenge level gets brought down to make it more playable for a fun/RP character, then yes, the server might become "too easy" for those players that build their characters with power in mind. If the server is truly designed to be a role play server instead of an action server then this should be the case anyway.

This has become much longer than I thought it would but I guess I tend to get carried away when trying to prove a point.

Well Met, all.

I believe Tarashon made the world to be like an MMO.
(*Cough's Everquest)
An MMo the designer's take plenty of time to test and think on what can and would be exploited.
To me Tarashon isn't punishing RPer's; He's safeguarding against players like me.
You know those guys that crunch number's and try to make it to max level the fastest.
In any Hardcore scenario, you're not going to the less practical approach, you're going to aim for survivability.
This is a hardcore Rp server; However if other players do take a more rp design standpoint,
I would think it'd be easier to just build new area's with less spawn's.
Ultimately to me, it's the waves, and waves of hard spawns that make it difficult for an Rp build here.
Also, it'd be wise to take into account all the work/effort Tarashon has put into this.
Ten year's is a heck of a time, and he's still trying to improve it,
I wouldn't be shocked if those new epic areas were almost done and epic all around.
That's my two cent's flame at will.

Good Hunting all.
Incartus

But, In the Case of Jess ( as she's the only epic I have and can relate to the above ) , what Warchief described is only a slight issue regarding my dex based character built for interest and RP more so than being the "all powerful,max super dex character , able to avoid all damage and kill enemies easily" type ...

Because , Jess is Party supportive ... she really wasn't ever designed to be "front line" assault.

Soloing, yes she has problems doing just about any of the higher to epic level things found.
But in a group , she doesn't suffer quite as much.

I keep in mind too, I built Jess "backwards" in many ways ... her base classes are still very, very low .... only her RDD is high at the moment, but I have reached the level 10 with that, and now shifting her focus onto improving her other areas.
Also, HP wise, I could improve a bit if I re-leveled her with the new 2das I downloaded, but I hadn't seen a real reason to do so as of yet.

From my point of view ... it doesn't matter if you have 20 AC or 50 AC , the monsters are going to hit you because of challenge scale regardless. Normally , it will be a critical hit that passes up the Ghost spell , or an effect like KnockDown ( rendering all dodge and dex AC useless anyways without evasion )

I have never fully explored the options of the forge , or tried to do much beyond improve Jess's weapons she has.
I do think though, to make comparative cloth armor , it takes way more forge tokens than improving AC from base armor and shields.
Mostly because that AC is all deflection AC , not dodge AC ... so it doesn't stack with other things like rings, ammys , helms, and such.
Or at least only gives you the highest benefit from those items.

Not everyone builds with MIn/Max in mind ... and in Jess' case, spiltting up my stats to cover the RDD and sorc aspects , did limit what I could start out with in her dex or strength ... I don't believe Jess can "max out" her dex for a +12 now, even with the ability boost quest.

But, I am actually fine with that ... as it's not important to me to be maxed out.

However, I do worry about other players, like Rose who's character might be dependent on maxing out dex AC ... I am sure, In a group , she'd be fine as well in a group play setting , but solo she'd be outclassed in her level range quest/monsters easily.

But I imagine, that if someone knew what they were doing , and made a super-dex build fighter ... they'd not suffer any like our characters do, save they'd always do way less damage because of light weapons use.

On a side note on my previous post, I am in no way saying that what tara has done is wrong or has not taken a ton of work to accomplish. I am mostly just stating what appears to be happening and where the balance currently sits. I still enjoy Alangara and enjoy playing with my friends but don't really wish to play solo. Tara has put in a lot of work and effort into making the server awesome and is still putting in that work and effort in continuing to make it awesome which is greatly appreciated. My stand point is just trying to view things in an overall perspective and relate what issues may come up overall.

Balance wise I think everything is slowly approaching a point where each class can nearly compete with the other. Casters can make short work of small mobs but slow down significantly on bosses, melee can put out a steady stream of consistent damage and ranged assaults are NEARLY on par! It will come down to play style and RP in the end. So far in my testing of solo characters (pre epic) the only ones that are "lacking" are builds that focus skills and feats for social skills instead of combat.. Granted this is an action server so I don't see too many folks playing a pure rp character.

Gear wise? There are more options now then there has been in years, if anyone pre-Tolmar needs a nice suit of plate then by all means message me and we can arrange a time to hop in game and go fetch one! Takes about an hour of battling undead and around 100k gold True there are very limited options for armors that are not full plate or wizard robes available to "find" in the world but that's what the forge is for.

Epic content, yeah it is supposed to be hard. Most anything after level 25 is going to be grind for minimal rewards while solo OR party up for substantial gains. Sadly we have a fairly small player base which does mean some folks suffer. Discussed this same issue with Incartius last night, it's just matter of scouting out the server and attempting to find a "risk vs. reward" you are happy with. I honestly feel for each and every one of us that has to solo in the epic levels as it can be pure hell. Some of you have no doubt already encountered the Dread Spiders, the furious wyrmlings in the valley of thunder and even perhaps the *shudders* isle of anoy.. Epic monsters are just that, epic! I am on during the weekends, typically evenings on central US time. I will team up with anyone that wants to join forces and we can attempt to tackle anything!

Again this opinion is formed from playing on several installments and versions of alangara, our current server has improved significantly on the mistakes and testings of it's previous forms. Druids Rangers and Bards were left in the cold while melee and casters were shining in the sun. Now I wouldn't hesitate to play any class.

Howdy folks

I somehow think that you are forgetting alot of the changes we have for DEX'ers special to this server and i know for a fact that NO ONE, have started to counterbalance those benefits in this debate.

Let me elaborate.

When we speak of DEX builds mainly what is at stake her eis the rogue.

I find it strange that we do not consider that rogues in Alangara have 1d6 hp per level instead of 1d4.

Also I find it lacking in the debate that everytime you give the option for permanent statboost to con and gearboost to con you actually boost the "tiny DEX'ers more than the big Tanks, since this closes the gabs between them HP wise. Therefore seen from a HP point of view rogues are actually MASSIVELY boosted compared to the standard game ratio/balance.

Another thing I find extremely lacking when debating rogues versus fighters is the fact that rogues have TONS of skillpoints. Most warriors will not find the 40 skillpoints to boost their natural Dodge AC with 4 at level 40 but all rogues will boost theirs to +8 at 40. Where are those 8 AC in the equation ???

Another thing is that the argument keeps centering around DEX'ers not wanting to use the feats on shield and expertise. How can that even be an argument in a fair debate about classes powerlevel. It seemes as if the idea is that dex characters are more RP'ish than others and therefore by divine means should have all the same powers without spending feats on it but still retaining all their bonusses.

If people want to create a character that can melee fight then they must actually do so - very simple. if you want a RP character that does not take these feats and skills then said character should infact RP.

I have now playtested both rogues ( yes since i know i am going to actually FIGHT i take the feats and use shield ) and my test rogue was a blast of destruction and that was even before we added the massively upgraded and way cheaper traps for them to use also.

Rangers and bards ( the 2 other natural dex builds ) are just insain and ultracool to play ( for me atleast ) compared to standard. Technically there is no problem for dex builds, but the problem in "singleplayer mode" comes excactly for allmost all due to their triple class RDD build. This means they have divided their forces into 3 different categories and as a result suffers powewise. Howeever RP wise anyone can use the models to give themselves wings etc if it was only a matter of that.

To me it is a invalid argument to state that a class is too weak because one wants to play a none fighter as a frontal melee fighter ( which is even way more possible here than in standard version compared to the power ration of fighter/rogue ) but not use feats to gain these essential powers.

How about all the fighters more or less being forced to use many of their extremely sparse skillpoints to get open lock ?

I find the debate and the focus on dexbuilds to be more or less singleminded and with an extreme focus of POSSIBLE downsides and an amazing ability to consequently IGNORE all the many bonusses.

How many actually consider that pure rogues actually have better AB than fighters with their uniqe roguepower granting them +20 AB and magical damage ( even using bows ) at level 31+ , and this also means they can easeir afford the AB loss using expertise than anyone else ?

The bardsong is so heavely upgraded that even bards wanting to melee fight are way better off here than standard, not to mention a powefull summon they can command to take front using the playertool for summons.

And rangers with all their improves spells and heavely upgraded summons and companions are truly fortresses of power and capebility.

The only main problem we have with these "DEX" matters is that people want to play a versatile character with all the powers of a completely specialized fighter; and thats really a shame if you ask me. further more its actually doable to a point where I personally find the fighter and barbarians the ones who should start complaint about powerbalance if anyone should.

Well those were my two cents by I am really amazed how people can list up so many POSSIBLE downsides for DEX builds and completely ignore excactly how many bonusses and options they have.

*EDIT*
When we talk about problems with flatfooded etc for dex builds kindly observe that we actually have potions that grants immunity to KD , and you can even specialise in those to make them last longer. and then we have the heavely improved duration on Clarityspell that now also grants KD immunity meaning a dex'er with a caster or potions is actually IMMUNE to KD.
*END EDIT*

/tara

my rogue can use a shield now?!?! That rule was lifted????? OMG!!

Adding in to Tara and his points here just to help him out.. With forge/dwarven/Tolmar weapons and all the buff available the weapon itself (in alangara) is merely the delivery system. Much like a syringe injects medicine, a sword is only to hit with all the added enchantments.

Dex builds (with a sheild) and a few cross class points into tumble OR take a level of rogue and just skill dump! My rogue hardly gets hit, blasts away with slow bolts, mixes it up with a forged mace and all she is wearing is +3 helm, +3 padded, +2 amulet, +2 boots and a Dex ring. Dex builds losing out here is something I just cannot understand..

Yes it was an we also added Tolmar CLOTH armor for the rogues so now they can actually get their full dex bonus and all the benefits of a Tolmar armor also

/tara