( FIXED ) Refining the Forge

[Balkoth]

I'm reconsidering some of the weapon prices for the following reason (or rather, question): are you expecting people to switch weapons a lot?

I found the golems in Smirkag's Lair which were 100% immune to a physical damage type each, but I thought maybe that was a one-off. Now I've found the pirates in the Frontier lizard swamp. Obviously, I hate critical immunity in general (about 25% less damage for all melee characters and about 50% less damage for weapon masters, not to mention rogues being unable to sneak attack)...but then on top of that the pirates had 50% immunity to slashing. Now maybe they also had 50% immunity to piercing and bludgeoning, but if not then it seems I'd be expected to switch to a morningstar or something.

I was figuring the weapon prices based on "one and done," as in build one weapon and you're set. But if you need to build several...

Which also brings up the question of dual-wielders and the forge (presumably they'd need to make two weapons)...though the benefit from dual-wielding is already small enough (and the benefit from a shield so massive) that I'm not even sure it would ever make sense to dual-wield except on absolutely trivial stuff.

[tarashon]

First and foremost all this "forge business" I would really apreciate if you and seeker can come up with some answer to that; since I'm asuming there is alot of technical isues in it to be solved, of which I am divinely clueless.

Overall the suggestions I've heard sofar seemes much in thread with the generel layer of my own expectations or wishes. And the 1 token per 1-6 level and 2 per 7-9 level spells seemes a good idea to me also.

However one thing you mentioned Balkoth that caught my attention was the differentation of weapon types. Seeker and I have talked alot about this in year past allthough we never got to do anything about it. The very same goes for armor types.

weapon fx :

small = 2d4 - max 2 damage enchantments
medium = 2d8 - Max 3 damage enchantments
two-hander = 2d12 - max four damage enchantments

( observe that apropriate classes always can add the "thunder ability" after )

This would likely make the huge difference between the "tanker" weapon and shield , and the other melee types.

For armor it could be like this....

Cloth

Damage Reduction +10 / 5
Damage Resistance / 5

Light

D-Red +10 / 5
D-res / 10

Medium

D-Red +15 / 10
D-Res / 10

heavy

D-Red +19 / 10
D-Res / 15

Damage imunity ( x % ) is only on shields.

If all of this is possible via the forge then I believe we have differentiated the use of both armor and weapons in a very nice way. Also i love the armor differentation because it eliminated/reduces the overly advantage of dex builds where rogues "outtanks" fighters - it simply Hurts my feelings hehe

/tara

[Somnium]

After having spent some time on analyzing the forge scripts (creating three pages of code/decode tables in the process), I now have a working prototype for charging a static cost

So far, I've seeded it with the example values Balkoth mentioned above. Right now, the modified script always charges the static amount without an added cost for existing enchantments, and it does not currently allow for "upgrading" an existing effect to a more powerful option if the max number of effects has already been reached (i.e. the same limitation as today).

So I guess the next step is to determine which properties should be available, and at which cost.

Open points before the first version of the forge can be deployed:

• Determine which properties should be available, including cost.
• Determine "extra" price for each existing property.
• Determine how the current different forge variants (i.e. royal forge vs. guild forge vs. standard forge) should function in the new system (or if this differentiation even makes sense at all anymore).

Other possible enhancements for the future:

• Move the check for max number of effects, so it is only a warning at the start of the forge conversation. When attempting to enchant an item, the "real" check will then be performed, and if the resulting enchantment exceeds the max number of enchantments, it will then fail. This will allow for the "upgrade +1 to +3 even though the limit has been reached" functionality, as the number of enchantments will be the same after the enchantment (as the new enchantment replaces the old one).
• Differentiate price and/or limits depending on item base type. Has a relatively high complexity, but it could be done with the current implementation. Note that blocking enchantment options outright for specific item base types might not be feasible, since this is controlled by the enchantment conversation and not the scripts. But e.g. increasing the price in certain situations could be implemented by altering the cost calculation script to handle more special cases.

[tarashon]

This sounds great Seeker

When do you think we could meet up ingame and discuss what powers, prices etc to implement ?

If you throw up some possibilities for you here ill chek out which i can attend to also and we can set a final date/time for it.

All others are obviously more than welcome to join in also, the more the merrier

/tara

[Somnium]

I'm usually available between 19:00 - 20:00 CEST on weekdays.

[Balkoth]

Given that's 2-3 PM for me that's a tad awkward. I definitely cannot meet on Wednesdays at that time. I also cannot meet this upcoming Tuesday at that time. Other than that, if I get a few days notice I could probably make it.

[Somnium]

Ah, that's understandable.

A solution might be that I have a chat with Tarashon (in DK time ) about the technical possibilities, and then you can have a discussion about the specific balancing changes to be made. I don't really have much of an opinion about mechanics balancing in any case, I fit squarely into the Explorer quadrant of the Bartle spectrum (with perhaps a dash of Socializer )

[tarashon]

Well for me its really mostly about the defining of a fair and workable "powerallocation", such as which powers and what level for ac/weap+ that matters,

This including finding a setup for armor type bonusses and weapontype bonusses, including a generel downscale of weapon since 400 dam per hit is too much for a melee imho. Basically would be cool though if melee perhaps got less damage than now but improved ac/surviveability. Just my thoughts...

Besides that im really looking forward to get this going

/tara

[Balkoth]

A solution might be that I have a chat with Tarashon (in DK time ) about the technical possibilities, and then you can have a discussion about the specific balancing changes to be made. I don't really have much of an opinion about mechanics balancing in any case, I fit squarely into the Explorer quadrant of the Bartle spectrum (with perhaps a dash of Socializer )

I suppose that could work. That said, and I don't mean this as an insult, but I don't think you'd think of more technical possibilities than I would (or at least not in ways that are really relevant -- anything I suggest is going to be something I know how to do). You certainly have some more technical knowledge in regards to some, well, technical stuff but there wouldn't be a situation where Tara went to you and said "Well, Balk suggested this but I need you to figure out if it's even possible." Even with the Forge stuff we're discussing whether certain methods are more elegant, not whether it's doable or whether it'll overwhelm the server or something.

Of course, if you already have specific stuff in mind you want to discuss with him that's another matter, but it basically seems like it'd be two entirely separate meetings, so to speak. I also did hope you'd be able to take a look at some of the stuff I'd propose (better than trying to describe it in many cases) along with Tara. Trying to communicate some general principles/design ideas via actual in-game play -- especially in regard to group play.

Bartle wise I just blazed through the test and scored 73% Explorer, 67% Achiever, 47% Socializer, and 13% Killer which seems reasonably accurate.

Well for me its really mostly about the defining of a fair and workable "powerallocation", such as which powers and what level for ac/weap+ that matters

Which largely depends on you. You can build a world where the best items are +3, +6, or +15 and balance things appropriately around that. I think that by default NWN tends to run best with getting +6-8 be the max on enhancements at level 40 but other levels of magic are doable.

This including finding a setup for armor type bonusses and weapontype bonusses, including a generel downscale of weapon since 400 dam per hit is too much for a melee imho. Basically would be cool though if melee perhaps got less damage than now but improved ac/surviveability. Just my thoughts...

Not to overly nitpick, but it'd be very difficult to avoid a scythe wielding WM from being able to do that vs the right targets. That said, I'd certainly agree that getting

2d8 Acid
2d8 Bludgeoning
2d8 Cold
2d10 Electrical
2d12 Fire
2d8 Piercing
5 Slashing
2d8 Sonic

on a weapon is a bit nuts...and that's not counting the bard song bonuses.

[tarashon]

We finally have a brand new forge script in play. might need some tweaks along the way but it's here

/tarashon