( FIXED ) Refining the Forge

[Balkoth]

Right now the Forge seems to have many problems, including weird things like the text not appearing and bugs like damage resistance/damage immunity not working.

But there's some other issues as well...

1, upgrading a shield from +3 to +5 (aka, overwriting the +3 with a +5) costs more than upgrading a shield from no bonus to +5. Believe it was *5* tokens versus *2* if I recall correctly.

2, upgrading any "value 0" item like the Crypt Cloak or the Boots of the Tormented Soul always costs 1 token each. Yes, that means my Boots of the Tormented Soul are sporting 10/+6 damage reduction for a mere 1 token when apparently it's supposed to cost like 12+.

3, the order in which you upgrade something matters and could cost you several extra tokens if you add property A then B rather than B then A.

4, many of the bonuses are useless. No one is ever going to use Forge Tokens to give a weapon +2 enhancement, for example.

5, the system is very opaque in general -- I've had 10 tokens and been told that I didn't have enough...but I don't know if that means I need 11 or that I need 30. Ditto for earlier when I had 3 tokens and I get told that's not enough.

So what do I propose instead?

Fixed costs per property. If adding 2 strength costs 2 tokens for a shield with +5 AC, it'll also costs 2 tokens for a ring with Fear immunity. No relation to the cost of the item overall or to the individual properties (in part because the game is TERRIBLE at gauging item value by default).

Now, maybe one of your goals is to force players to spread item properties across their gear rather than create a few "super items" with most of the bonuses. If so, that can be done just by increasing the cost by 1-2 tokens per existing property "due to it being more and more difficult to add magical properties when the item already possesses them" or something. For example, if I wanted add +2 strength to a blank item, that would cost 2 tokens. If I wanted to add it to an item with a property, it would cost 3 tokens. If the item has two properties, then 4. Three properties, 5. Four properties, 6. And if it has five properties then it's done. If you're concerned that will be too cheap, can make the cost increase by 2 each, meaning that it would cost 2/4/6/8/10 for 0/1/2/3/4 properties respectively.

Weapons are another matter. If you have access to a Cleric/Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard or someone who can UMD scrolls then your best bet is to make a weapon that has 0 enhancement bonus and no Keen. For a Longsword, for example, you'd want something like 2d8 Bludgeoning, 2d8 Piercing, 2d8 Sonic, 2d8 Acid, and 2d8 Cold. Then you add 2d12 Fire from Flame Weapon/Darkfire, 2d10 Electric if you're able to use Thunderstrike, get +5 (or better) from GMW, and get Keen from Keen Edge.

Right now my WM is set up in a similar fashion. I made a wizard alt specifically to scribe level 17 Flame Weapon/Keen Edge and level 15 GMW scrolls (despite the fact the wizard was level 5 when I started generating scrolls). And since my WM has UMD from some rogue levels, he can keep those buffs on his weapon for effectively perma +5 enhancement/Keen/2d12 properties on the weapon.

This seems like a pretty, well, stupid situation to me. At a minimum I'd propose a weapon have three damage bonuses max. That means someone with access to those spells could skip enhancing/keening the weapon and have two slots open for ability bonuses/spell slots/etc. Someone without access can enhance and keen it without feeling like they're making a worse weapon overall (since they're giving up damage bonuses otherwise).

I think those two changes alone would vastly improve the forge system because right now it's a bit of a black box and very weird in many cases.

[tarashon]

Well I see your point quite clearly yes.

First of I guess the whole scroll business kind of "distorts the ballance" in the sense that it makes it ludicrously easy to get those bonusses you mentions via an alt that it takes a few hours to create and play to level 5. Not really sure how to adress that spicific isue to be honest. I do remember we had those creation skills removed from the server at a time via removing the access to blank scaoll, potions and rods etc.

Also remember we tried with potions at a point but got into some problems with classes Again getting accss to power/imunities they were'nt really supposed to. Again not really sure what to do about it since I am not overly fond of "nerfing" gameplay and options in a time where it is hard to get new players to join the this old game and likely "nerfing" is not really the most apealing "pill to swallow" for many players...

The forgeproblems overall seem to be of rather MASSIVE proportions which will take some consideration to to adress. At first glance your suggestions seemes to be fairly well-though-out, and the 2/4/6/8/10 aproach fairly ballanced in respect of itemcost...

Also the max 3 weapon enchantmens might be a good limit considering the cumulative bonusses with darkfire/thunder/bardsong.

The actual scripting of these things will howver ( as always ) be upon Seeker so waiting for his reply on the matter also.

Regardless I think you have some good and valid observations and suggestions on the matter

/tara

[Balkoth]

Also the max 3 weapon enchantmens might be a good limit considering the cumulative bonusses with darkfire/thunder/bardsong.

Just to be clear, I was referring to damage bonuses specifically. In other words, a cleric could make a mace that looks like

2d8 Piercing
2d8 Bludgeoning
2d8 Sonic
2 Strength
Level 6 Bonus Spell Slot

OR the cleric could just leave it at

2d8 Piercing
2d8 Bludgeoning
2d8 Sonic

and use tokens on OTHER gear.

While a fighter who doesn't expect to get GMW/Keen would be aiming for a longsword with

+5 enhancement
Keen
2d8 Piercing
2d8 Bludgeoning
2d8 Sonic

The cleric (or paladin or anyone with consistent access to either) basically gets the +5 for free and anyone with consistent access to a mage/bard gets +5/keen for free. But the fighter/barbarian/ranger/rogue/etc can still get an equal weapon...they just need to put in a lot more work (if we say that +5 enhancement is 4 tokens and Keen is 2 tokens, we'd be looking at an extra 4 + 6 (three properties) + 2 + 8 (four properties) = 20 tokens (or 500k gold) to get an equal weapon.

the 2/4/6/8/10 aproach fairly ballanced in respect of itemcost...

Out of curiosity, how often do you expect/plan on people getting a forge token? You mentioned thinking that even someone getting 5 cherries per hour would be gold limited. Keep in mind those numbers I quoted will changed based on the value of the property. Let's take a hypothetical suit of armor and go with the following...

+5 AC (3 tokens)
+2 Str (2 tokens)
+2 Con (2 tokens)
True Seeing (5 tokens)
+2 Fortitude (1 token)

That item would cost, overall, 3 (AC) + 2 (Str) + 2 (one property) + 2 (Con) + 4 (two properties) + 5 (True Seeing) + 6 (three properties) + 1 (Fort) + 8 (four properties) = 33 tokens total (or 825k in raw gold).

If you went with 1 extra cost per existing property, you'd get...3 (AC) + 2 (Str) + 1 (one property) + 2 (Con) + 2 (two properties) + 5 (True Seeing) + 3 (three properties) + 1 (Fort) + 4 (four properties) = 23 tokens total (or 575k in raw gold).

If you skipped the +2 Fortitude it would cost 24 tokens/600k gold for the first pricing algorithm and 18 tokens/450k gold for the second.

Obviously the values I gave for the AC/ability boost/True Seeing/Saving Throws are off the top of my head.

The actual scripting of these things will howver ( as always ) be upon Seeker so waiting for his reply on the matter also.

Of course!

[Balkoth]

Oh, three more things.

1, ideally the system would allow you to upgrade existing properties no matter what. In other words, if I have a +3 Longsword with Keen, 1 Strength, 20 Spell Resistance, and 2d8 Acid damage...I should still be able to upgrade the enhancement (to +4 or +5) and Strength (to +2).

2, ideally those properties wouldn't be factored into the cost (in other words, upgrading the enhancement would treat the weapon as having four properties rather than five since it's basically removing/replacing the existing property).

3, an easy way around this would be to allow the player to remove specific properties on items. However, since you've deliberately put lots of (often useless) properties on items to make them not usable with the forge (or less usable), you might not like that idea. For example, one could take the werewolf mine belt and strip it of everything but the 25% Fire Immunity, 25% Cold immunity, and 2 Regen and then put whatever they want in the last two slots. On the flip side, given that there's supposed to be much better loot in epic levels and a better forge, maybe being able to do that to some low level items isn't the end of the world. Could even do something like charge 1 Forge Token for each property removed -- meaning upgrading the +3 Longsword to +5 (when it already has five properties) would cost one extra Forge Token while trying to strip the werewolf belt would cost like...10 extra forge tokens.

[tarashon]

In all honesty I've never even though of using the forge to REMOVE properties...

Again right now I'm rather tired so I will likely be more "brainy" this weekend. However whereas this server once upon a time had a ballance of Things working with the amount of players i get an idea that what we are in effect more or less doing at this time is restructuring the intire system.

Seing and acepting that to make the server interesting for the single individual trying us at the time I however realise the obvious fact that this is needed and that whereas it to some degree is a "ryal pain in...." at this time It IS really what is needed...

I strongly suggest though we find some time where we can sit Down ingame and discuss these matters. Aslong as the World requires people to Work for getting to 40 and even more so 40 reborn, and it is ballanced and remains greatly challangin for the epic warparty....I'm happy, and I'm fairly sure thats also how Seeker feels about Things..

/tara

[Balkoth]

at this time It IS really what is needed...

There's the rub, isn't it? I definitely understand it sucks seeing things picked apart, but...yeah, don't really have any hope of acquiring a decent playerbase without restructuring some stuff. No guarantee you'll get one with the changes either.

Aslong as the World requires people to Work for getting to 40 and even more so 40 reborn, and it is ballanced and remains greatly challangin for the epic warparty....I'm happy, and I'm fairly sure thats also how Seeker feels about Things..

Along those lines, keep in mind I'm very far from the average player. I'm the kind of guy who literally has a stopwatch and times out several farming runs to see what gives the best gold per hour (frozen north is still the best I've found for 175k-200k an hour, followed by swamp for 150-160k an hour, followed by earth elementals for about 65k an hour). And I'm playing a weapon master who massacres enemies with souped up forge gear who has access to GMW/Keen/Flame Weapon scrolls -- most characters can't come close to those numbers I just listed. So if you look at how long it takes me to do stuff (like clear a dungeon or gain a level)...you'll need to like triple or quadruple that for most people.

And I'm the kind of guy who thinks spending 4 hours continuously dying to try to beat a difficult boss is a fun way to spend two nights per week (with my WoW guild). Died 33 times in four hours tonight! So if I'm frustrated with something...yeah.

[Somnium]

The original forge script was a 3rd party script, which was incorporated into Alangara in a slightly modified form. So a lot of the "idiosyncrasies" of the script owes to the fact, that it was not 100% tailor-made to our needs.

For instance, the entire cost formula is heavily based on the standard NWN values for different enchantments (which is then approximated into a "token-cost"). I agree that a more "streamlined" forge script might be a good idea to implement.

[tarashon]

Well I atleast hope 33 dies in 4 hours is a worse score than "alangara - New Dawn" offers

/tara

[Balkoth]

For instance, the entire cost formula is heavily based on the standard NWN values for different enchantments (which is then approximated into a "token-cost"). I agree that a more "streamlined" forge script might be a good idea to implement.

I think it'll also be fairly simple to change. For just the basics (aka, altering the current stuff without adding new features like being able to go from +3 to +5 on an item with five properties already) I think you'd only need like...five new scripts (one for each token cost if we assume that costs will range from 1 to 5 tokens base). Then each of those scripts would share a common function that adds on the additional cost of working on an item with existing properties. As you might guess, those five scripts would nearly be copy/paste except for the base cost. Could also add in a sixth script that checks if a weapon already has three damage bonuses (and if so refuse to add more) as mentioned above.

Overall, I'd potentially suggest reconsidering some of the properties and we can certainly discuss that, but for now I'm going to assume we're trying to get in a quick "jury-rig" fix just to eliminate the current pricing weirdness (and deal with potentially changing available properties later -- there are several issues I'd like to cover ranging from AC availability to damage bonus amounts to weapon size modifiers and beyond).

As a starting point, thoughts on the following for costs? Working with "tokens" gives less flexibility than raw gold (3 tokens to 4 is a 33% increase in price), but the price of the tokens can also be altered if desired (making a token worth four cherries and 12k gold would effectively make everything 20% cheaper, making a token worth six cherries and 18k gold would effectively make everything 20% more expensive). I'm ignoring the bonuses that I think aren't worth worrying about (like no one is going to get AC +2 or whatever), can just "comment out" those lines.

Enhancement +3: 1 token (can already buy +3 gear for like 16k from shops)
Enhancement +5: 5 tokens

AC +3: 1 token (can already buy +3 gear for like 8k from shops)
AC +5: 3 tokens

Damage bonus of 2d8: 3 tokens

Keen (which technically doesn't look like an option at the moment): 1 token

Damage Immunity: no idea, it's currently broken so don't know what values are intended to be -- would actually suggest dropping this entirely due to stacking issues

Damage Resistance 5/-: 1 token

Damage Reduction: so many monsters apparently have very high natural damage reduction or enhancement bonuses on weapons to the point where even the 10/+6 is worthless (literally does nothing) very quickly, probably just drop it.

Ability Modifier +2: 2 tokens

Bonus Spell Slot: this I'm really not sure about since I don't know how many you expect people to have -- Tara mentioned having like 15+ spells per spell level, may have even been higher. Perhaps 1 token for level 5 and below, 2 tokens for level 6 and above?

Immunity to Fear/Disease/Paralysis/Poison: 1 token (as in 1 token per immunity)

Fortitude/Will/Reflex +2: 1 token
Universal Saves +2: 3 tokens (idea is that you're potentially saving slots on gear so it costs considerably more, this option doesn't current exist, though)

True Seeing: 5 tokens

Spell Resistance 20: 4 tokens

Vampiric Regen: just scrap it due to changes for weapons (whole point is to lessen gap between people with access to GMW/Keen Edge and those without)

Visual Effect: again, scrap it. Too much of a "trap" for people to wind up with bad weapons, which is a really big deal for non-casters. Can possibly add in "gems" that permanently give a weapon the desired effect and not count that property as one of the five in the forge script.

Well I atleast hope 33 dies in 4 hours is a worse score than "alangara - New Dawn" offers

Depends on if we're defining "worse" as dying more or dying less!

[Balkoth]

Oh, and remember the idea is that adding properties on an item with several already gets more expensive, I've suggested either +1 or +2 per property. For example, let's make an ideal longsword.

For +1 per property...

Enhancement +5 (5 tokens, 5 tokens total)
Keen (1 token + 1 for existing properties, 7 tokens total)
Piercing 2d8 (3 tokens + 2 for existing properties, 12 tokens total)
Bludgeoning 2d8 (3 tokens + 3 for existing properties, 18 tokens total)
Sonic 2d8 (3 tokens + 4 for existing properties, 25 tokens total)

If we assume a token is worth 25k, that's the equivalent of 625k gold.

For +2 per property...

Enhancement +5 (5 tokens, 5 tokens total)
Keen (1 token + 2 for existing properties, 8 tokens total)
Piercing 2d8 (3 tokens + 4 for existing properties, 16 tokens total)
Bludgeoning 2d8 (3 tokens + 6 for existing properties, 25 tokens total)
Sonic 2d8 (3 tokens + 8 for existing properties, 34 tokens total)

Again, assuming a token is worth 25k, that's the equivalent of 850k gold.

Someone with access to GMW/Keen could save a lot of gold by skipping the Enhancement and Keen properties (or add other properties to the weapon in those two "slots").