I suppose the only way to find out how bad the high ac effect will get is to try it out. We could potentially write that this is a "try out" and that if things dont work out people will get the option to have the character completely redone if need be, including fortunes and gear etc,, ( as best as we can do that anyways ).
Problem however still remain with that darn speed that seriously destroys the encounters. Did anyone mention some sort of token that could be used to limit speed ?
Was also wondering if the monkspeed is an option in class.2da that we could remove and fx substitute with barbarian movement bonus ?
/tara
A re-look at class banns
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BenevolentDevil
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:37 am
Re: A re-look at class banns
On that I have no idea my friend. 2das are beyond my understanding
Re: A re-look at class banns
Was reading at the monk and found out that monkspeed actually ONLY works if the monk is not using armor or shield. So basically if we setup a rule that monks MUST wear armor then we have stopped the speed issue and while they retain their bonus from wisdom to AC they dont also get the potentially very high bonus from DEX. This should actually make them perhaps quite useable. As for their low damage, remember that with all the damage spells from all casters and semicasters monks can get an furious damage using kama's together with other players and even nasty one using the forge....
How does that sound ?
And should we find out they actually are becoming weak loosing their dexbuild and ultra movement speed we can always find ways to up them up some for balancing issues
/tara
How does that sound ?
And should we find out they actually are becoming weak loosing their dexbuild and ultra movement speed we can always find ways to up them up some for balancing issues
/tara
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BenevolentDevil
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:37 am
Re: A re-look at class banns
Well, we could ... or just leave things as is.
When I started the topic, I wondered if we were simply limiting choices and that's why some players weren't sticking around. I don't think now, thats actually a factor.
No need to waste effort , if it's not really productive to have.
Since I pretty much invest most my play time, when I play to Jess , I don't need to have another alt to be honest.
Over my NWN lifespan, I played two monks where i had a lot of fun with ... one on a FR Silverymoon like server, was more "RP" based , I played a single classed monk. It was low magic world , so she was quite powerful once reaching her 20's level ranges there.
Wasn't unstoppable , just not a weak little kitten either.
Then on World Serpent Inn, I played Nakira Cho , pretty much she was a Ninja like concept. She started a small guild of her own , more akin to Yakuza or Chineese Mafia in operation, and wound up taking contracts to murder other rival guild members ( both PC and NPC ) , even though she was not technically and "assassin".
But there was a lot of "support" for her build there beyond gloves and kamas , having many items of grenade like varieties useful to her , and most of it was also very RP based as a concept more than actual physical combat.
Nakira had a "public face" , and "public career" , very few knew her as her alt identity or her "exact profession".
I used disguises, and when she was in Ninja Mode, a black suit and hood that hid her identity as well.
I had other monk characters here and there of course, but most were not overly fun to play just for the sake of playing a class.
When I started the topic, I wondered if we were simply limiting choices and that's why some players weren't sticking around. I don't think now, thats actually a factor.
No need to waste effort , if it's not really productive to have.
Since I pretty much invest most my play time, when I play to Jess , I don't need to have another alt to be honest.
Over my NWN lifespan, I played two monks where i had a lot of fun with ... one on a FR Silverymoon like server, was more "RP" based , I played a single classed monk. It was low magic world , so she was quite powerful once reaching her 20's level ranges there.
Wasn't unstoppable , just not a weak little kitten either.
Then on World Serpent Inn, I played Nakira Cho , pretty much she was a Ninja like concept. She started a small guild of her own , more akin to Yakuza or Chineese Mafia in operation, and wound up taking contracts to murder other rival guild members ( both PC and NPC ) , even though she was not technically and "assassin".
But there was a lot of "support" for her build there beyond gloves and kamas , having many items of grenade like varieties useful to her , and most of it was also very RP based as a concept more than actual physical combat.
Nakira had a "public face" , and "public career" , very few knew her as her alt identity or her "exact profession".
I used disguises, and when she was in Ninja Mode, a black suit and hood that hid her identity as well.
I had other monk characters here and there of course, but most were not overly fun to play just for the sake of playing a class.
Re: A re-look at class banns
Well as I see it Alangara functions as it is without those classes banned. Sure enough.
However would it not also function if we took out one or more...likely !
This however does not alter the fact that we never removed classes or feats because we wanted to LIMIT the game, but rather out of need in balance issues. So if we could do this with the monk that would likely mean that people would opt for the STR/wis monk instead of the DEX/wis monk. From what i read the STR version also have a far better damage output thus perhaps actually balancing things even better.
What say you my good seeker ( mostly since he also knows if we can merely remove monkspeed without the armor demand ), and others seing this thread ?
And how about you Icy... would that work for you ?
/tara
However would it not also function if we took out one or more...likely !
This however does not alter the fact that we never removed classes or feats because we wanted to LIMIT the game, but rather out of need in balance issues. So if we could do this with the monk that would likely mean that people would opt for the STR/wis monk instead of the DEX/wis monk. From what i read the STR version also have a far better damage output thus perhaps actually balancing things even better.
What say you my good seeker ( mostly since he also knows if we can merely remove monkspeed without the armor demand ), and others seing this thread ?
And how about you Icy... would that work for you ?
/tara
Re: A re-look at class banns
Just thought I would mention, that monks wearing armour do not get the wisdom ac bonus, nor would they get the extra attacks. Not really sure why the speed would be a problem. Sure you can run away fast, but it does not help to kill the creatures. To defeat them, a monk must stand up to them, and that is where the speed offers no advantages. I do not play monks much, but I have used them for the wisdom ac bonus. I do not think I would ever play a monk if I had to wear armour.
I have not been around lately, but that is mostly because my friends stopped playing. The server is still a fun place to play, and I did enjoy the quests, though was too many bounty quests. I'm not a pure role player, so I like a little action, and I found it too hard if there is nobody to play with.
I have not been around lately, but that is mostly because my friends stopped playing. The server is still a fun place to play, and I did enjoy the quests, though was too many bounty quests. I'm not a pure role player, so I like a little action, and I found it too hard if there is nobody to play with.
Re: A re-look at class banns
Ah was'nt aware of the wis ac bonus was only unarmored.
And yes the server is still hard at single levels, especially after level 20, and yes as always we could use even more quests not so combat oriented.
As for the speed such a problem there are several factors.
1.
Running beyond the speed of anything else means that the monk can trigger ambushes and still actually get out of them to move into a tactical position ( since the AI is stupid enough to allow this )
2. Due to our massive options of regeneration the monks ability to circle around anything ( kiting as it is called in other games ) renders them "immortal" to normal melee troopers. Basically the speed is more of a teleport effect in game technically reality compared to other players and monsters which is why it breaks balance completely.
3.
Also since our monsters are following players rather limited this means that the monk can basically run though various epic level areas "unhindered" to reach their position. This was specifically not the intention for the server for which reasons fx most epic level monster have truesight and the clerics sanctuary and greater sanctuary is disabled.
Hopes this explains the balancing issues with the speed well enough
All these things being said what remain interesting is if the only reason people want monks is to uberboost fx sorc/druid dragonshapes or the class could be interesting without extreme ac and speed. Perhaps instead of having it completely banned we could use it as another type of plate user, still gaining the SR, some special feats and then maybe come up with new and interesting concepts for them. being it either via playertools, itempowers or what know I....
/tara
And yes the server is still hard at single levels, especially after level 20, and yes as always we could use even more quests not so combat oriented.
As for the speed such a problem there are several factors.
1.
Running beyond the speed of anything else means that the monk can trigger ambushes and still actually get out of them to move into a tactical position ( since the AI is stupid enough to allow this )
2. Due to our massive options of regeneration the monks ability to circle around anything ( kiting as it is called in other games ) renders them "immortal" to normal melee troopers. Basically the speed is more of a teleport effect in game technically reality compared to other players and monsters which is why it breaks balance completely.
3.
Also since our monsters are following players rather limited this means that the monk can basically run though various epic level areas "unhindered" to reach their position. This was specifically not the intention for the server for which reasons fx most epic level monster have truesight and the clerics sanctuary and greater sanctuary is disabled.
Hopes this explains the balancing issues with the speed well enough
All these things being said what remain interesting is if the only reason people want monks is to uberboost fx sorc/druid dragonshapes or the class could be interesting without extreme ac and speed. Perhaps instead of having it completely banned we could use it as another type of plate user, still gaining the SR, some special feats and then maybe come up with new and interesting concepts for them. being it either via playertools, itempowers or what know I....
/tara
Re: A re-look at class banns
Hi Tara,
I've emailed you a file that you can test, that should disable the Monk speed bonus. So try it, and see if it works
I've emailed you a file that you can test, that should disable the Monk speed bonus. So try it, and see if it works
Somnium (a.k.a. Seeker)
Re: A re-look at class banns
Howdy Seeker
Well i have both put it up on the serverside and my own now and still at level 3 i get the monkspeed bonus. Also had to remove the monk limitation on the playerlevelup event serversde to actually test out the monk, so currently its possible to actually make monk on the server. Needed for testing....
Perhaps there is another aproach ?
If not I am thinking that maybe we can make for a completely new type of monk quite easely.
From what I see on the 2da files and how i understand them we could basically grant the monk spellcasting abilities like the ranger and give them a comepletely uniqe set of spellcombinations. this combined with forcing monks to use heavy armor means they will not have the wis ac bonus and speed bonus but instead be fighting armorclad monkstyle with kamas and a variety of spells.
currently thinking different forms of buffs such as -
single haste.
etheral visage.
positive damage buff for weapons ( same as rangers then )
stoneskin/improved stoneskin
smaller healing spells. ´( pretty much like ranger also )
see invis
truesight
freedom of movement.
My main concern remains with the monk that in build combinations with fx druid and sorceror which forms are fabled to get insain AC it will still ruin balance.
Also people using monks in this way are not really playing monks. they are merely using it to boost another class combination. What I am suggesting the other way makes the monk less of an attraction to such combinations but possible more fun to play alone. I dont know i just know that the monk class is excellent at boosting other class combinations to balance breaking points, while at the same time i recognize its uniqe RP nature and would really love to cater for an interesting option for that.
regardless our attempt to stop monkspeed didn't seem to work Seeker, so any other ideas ?
Maybe try to set a prequisite for another skill they could not possible have ?
Can even try that myself I suppose
/tara
Well i have both put it up on the serverside and my own now and still at level 3 i get the monkspeed bonus. Also had to remove the monk limitation on the playerlevelup event serversde to actually test out the monk, so currently its possible to actually make monk on the server. Needed for testing....
Perhaps there is another aproach ?
If not I am thinking that maybe we can make for a completely new type of monk quite easely.
From what I see on the 2da files and how i understand them we could basically grant the monk spellcasting abilities like the ranger and give them a comepletely uniqe set of spellcombinations. this combined with forcing monks to use heavy armor means they will not have the wis ac bonus and speed bonus but instead be fighting armorclad monkstyle with kamas and a variety of spells.
currently thinking different forms of buffs such as -
single haste.
etheral visage.
positive damage buff for weapons ( same as rangers then )
stoneskin/improved stoneskin
smaller healing spells. ´( pretty much like ranger also )
see invis
truesight
freedom of movement.
My main concern remains with the monk that in build combinations with fx druid and sorceror which forms are fabled to get insain AC it will still ruin balance.
Also people using monks in this way are not really playing monks. they are merely using it to boost another class combination. What I am suggesting the other way makes the monk less of an attraction to such combinations but possible more fun to play alone. I dont know i just know that the monk class is excellent at boosting other class combinations to balance breaking points, while at the same time i recognize its uniqe RP nature and would really love to cater for an interesting option for that.
regardless our attempt to stop monkspeed didn't seem to work Seeker, so any other ideas ?
Maybe try to set a prequisite for another skill they could not possible have ?
Can even try that myself I suppose
/tara
Re: A re-look at class banns
Grrr.
Been trying various versions now Seeker and it will not stop the actual monkspeed at level 3.
I've even tried altering the 2da file in such a way that it gave weapon proficiency martial instead of monkspeed. if both in the server and local you actully now then get the feat, or rather the description of it since it is not working.
From what i can read there is another file that should actually define the speed factor of the feat. perhaps we can find that file and manipulate it to either nothing or just abit so it will be more like barbarian speed. more than normal but not.... teleport'ish.
/tara
PS.
For now its left open for monks so basically if someone want to goof around with a monk give it a go
Been trying various versions now Seeker and it will not stop the actual monkspeed at level 3.
I've even tried altering the 2da file in such a way that it gave weapon proficiency martial instead of monkspeed. if both in the server and local you actully now then get the feat, or rather the description of it since it is not working.
From what i can read there is another file that should actually define the speed factor of the feat. perhaps we can find that file and manipulate it to either nothing or just abit so it will be more like barbarian speed. more than normal but not.... teleport'ish.
/tara
PS.
For now its left open for monks so basically if someone want to goof around with a monk give it a go